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Old 05-27-2008, 02:39 PM   #61
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I am using a X-Rite Display-2 sensor.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:07 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
I'm attaching two calibration files for my 110FD, one for ISF-Day and the other for ISF-Night. It is interesting to see the tradeoffs between trying to get a smooth gamma curve, vs. a smooth gray scale. ISF-Night gets the gamma right around 2.2, but the gray scale is a bit bumpy. ISF-Day gets the gray scale smoother, but the gamma is a bit lower (2.1) and not quite so smooth. There are minor color errors to be fixed, especially cyan. But, overall, I'm happy with both of these. I like the fact that one can have two settings to compare. My feeling is that 2.2 as the gamma threshold is a bit high, and I am going to see tonight if I like 2.1 better.

Comments welcome! Thanks again to Shawn for his really neat program, which made this so much easier. I wish I could get reliable performance from the internal HCFR test patters, which would make calibration so much faster than using the AVS HD-DVD, and manually stepping through each pattern.
I just joined this forum. I'm quite active on the AVS forum. I just finished calibrating my Pro 150 using i1 Display 2 and HCFR. I looked your charts and noticed that you also have a high dE for Blue. I also calibrated my Fujitsu P50 (40) and the blue dE was also high. Don't know what this means. Here are the settings I used and my file.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +8
Tint: G4
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -1
G High 0
B High +7
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low -5

CTI: Off

Color Management
R -8
Y +2
G -2
C -5
B -1
M -3

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2

Let me know what you think.

Jim
Attached Files
File Type: zip Elite AVS 709 T0 3.zip (1.7 KB, 22 views)
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Old 05-30-2008, 01:17 PM   #63
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Jim (sirluckyj), your settings above were set in the Normal (non ISFccc Modes), correct?

If so, I will copy/move your post to the Non-ISFccc Thread.. (also, why wouldn't want to use the ISFccc Modes?)

Please confirm and let me know....

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Old 05-31-2008, 02:00 AM   #64
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Jim (sirluckyj), your settings above were set in the Normal (non ISFccc Modes), correct?

If so, I will copy/move your post to the Non-ISFccc Thread.. (also, why wouldn't want to use the ISFccc Modes?)

Please confirm and let me know....

Shawn
Shawn: Yes, Normal. I guess I don't know about the ISFcc mode.

Jim
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by sirluckyj View Post
I just joined this forum. I'm quite active on the AVS forum. I just finished calibrating my Pro 150 using i1 Display 2 and HCFR. I looked your charts and noticed that you also have a high dE for Blue. I also calibrated my Fujitsu P50 (40) and the blue dE was also high. Don't know what this means. Here are the settings I used and my file.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 34
Brightness: 0
Color: +8
Tint: G4
Sharpness: -15


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Standard
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Low
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 2


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High -1
G High 0
B High +7
R Low -1
G Low 0
B Low -5

CTI: Off

Color Management
R -8
Y +2
G -2
C -5
B -1
M -3

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 2

Let me know what you think.

Jim
Jim, you should be able to flatten the grayscale and reduce Delta E using the gamma controls in CC. Thats how I did it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip ISF Day.zip (2.5 KB, 25 views)
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Old 06-02-2008, 04:02 PM   #66
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Shawn: Yes, Normal. I guess I don't know about the ISFcc mode.

Jim
OK, I will copy your post to the other Thread and post the link below:

EDIT: Copied to: http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47


Also, the ISFccc mode gives your 8G Pioneer Elite Display two additional memory slots PER Input (ISF Day/ISF Night) and gives you 9 Point Gamma Control. You really should use that mode and ControlCAL gives you access to it..

Most of the Members here with Pioneer Displays are using it. I can give you access to the Beta Threads if you want to read up, just ask.

Let me know if you would like to get the Pioneer ISFccc Display Profiles for ControlCAL.

-Shawn

Last edited by Turbe; 06-02-2008 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 06:52 AM   #67
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Wolfy and GorGorBey, did you two get your I1 Pro's yet?
Yep

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test...

This time I reached the perfection...
Attached Files
File Type: zip ISF NIGHT.zip (7.2 KB, 48 views)
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:12 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
Yep

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test.

This time I reached the perfection (REC601 format...)
Awesome results GorGorBey

One question for you. At the weekend I was testing and got 10IRE with Delta E of about 2. Everything else was under 3-4 except IRE 40 which spiked to almost 8. Nothing I could do would resolve it and in the end I had to sacrafice 10IRE to bring it down again. Is this normal?
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:14 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
Yep

I received the new I1PRO Saturday morning.

I tested it. Everything was ok....

The ControlCal software is working fine (I redo a calibration from the beginning with the b18 release)

I found no issues during a 2 hours test.

This time I reached the perfection (REC601 format...)
One other thing... are you going to post the sequence you used to get those results
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:35 AM   #70
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Awesome results GorGorBey

One question for you. At the weekend I was testing and got 10IRE with Delta E of about 2. Everything else was under 3-4 except IRE 40 which spiked to almost 8. Nothing I could do would resolve it and in the end I had to sacrafice 10IRE to bring it down again. Is this normal?
The measure at 10 IRE is not accurate. So don't bother with Delta E at this IRE (with an I1PRO measure start to be valid at 20 IRE)

You can play on the gamma value (by color) to correct a invalid RVB curbe. Did you try that ?

Can you post your file before and after your last modification ?
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Old 06-10-2008, 02:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
The measure at 10 IRE is not accurate. So don't bother with Delta E at this IRE (with an I1PRO measure start to be valid at 20 IRE)

You can play on the gamma value (by color) to correct a invalid RVB curbe. Did you try that ?

Can you post your file before and after your last modification ?
Here they are. As you can see I got marginal improvements in the greyscale but my gamma curve is tailing off at the higher IRE's.

I havent really attempted adjusting the Colour yet, hence the reason for asking which procedures you used. Im not using the eye one pro just the LT.
Attached Files
File Type: zip before.zip (2.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: zip after.zip (4.4 KB, 30 views)
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:39 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by mdfire View Post
Here they are. As you can see I got marginal improvements in the greyscale but my gamma curve is tailing off at the higher IRE's.

I havent really attempted adjusting the Colour yet, hence the reason for asking which procedures you used. Im not using the eye one pro just the LT.
I prefer the second one...

You should be able to improve your curves (perhaps try to increase Low Green +1 or decrease Low Blue by 1)...

Nevertheless you need to start with CIE Diagram because these changes will have big impacts on RVB Curves, then you adjust gamma (first with Luminosity and Contrast secondly by Colour) and finally you modify RVB values...
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
I prefer the second one...

You should be able to improve your curves (perhaps try to increase Low Green +1 or decrease Low Blue by 1)...

Nevertheless you need to start with CIE Diagram because these changes will have big impacts on RVB Curves, then you adjust gamma (first with Luminosity and Contrast secondly by Colour) and finally you modify RVB values...
Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:39 PM   #74
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Sorry for these questions but this is my first time using anything like this:

What's RS232? How do you connect computer and TV? Do i need a special cable? How does it work?
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:12 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by mdfire View Post
Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?
Don't get too hung up on results in the charts, they are really only an indication and especially when using low end equipment you are more likely adjusting against errors in the readings than actual errors in the Pioneer G8. Thus, if you achieve a perfect result in the graphs you have in reality only achieved a worse picture quality than you started with.

Using a Display 2/LT (or indeed a i1 Pro) you should as much as possible not move the Pioneer's primary colors using the TV's Color Management controls. This is not only me saying so, but the consensus of a few professional calibrators with high end equipment that I have asked regarding this. Pioneer's primary colors are close to standard and should require only very small adjustment if any at all and you should always keep looking at real material during calibration so as not to get too focused on results in a chart. Also remember that the CIE chart in particular only tells you part of the story.

Anyway, proper procedure during calibration should, IMHO, be:
  1. Black level adjustment (Brightness)
  2. Reference White level adjustment (Contrast)
  3. Primary Colors gamut, check and adjust if necessary (I would just leave it as is or only make very small adjustments)
  4. Gray scale adjustment
  5. Gamma adjustment if necessary (should not require much if any if you leave Color Management alone, and also remembering that errors in either measurements and software calculations can be the reason for graphs not looking perfect)
  6. Secondary Colors, check and adjust if necessary (same as for primary colors, I would leave as is or only make very small adjustment)
  7. Check primary colors again and adjust if necessary
  8. Start over from 4
  9. Start over from 1 and if all is OK then you are finished
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:17 AM   #76
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Your procedure is the complete opposite to all the advice on the boards. Still your results are impressive so I will give it a try on another input at the weekend.

Shawn, any sign of the import/export settings upgrade?
It's true...The calibration process is different...

It works fine on the Pioneer...
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post
Sorry for these questions but this is my first time using anything like this:

What's RS232? How do you connect computer and TV? Do i need a special cable? How does it work?
RS232 is a serial interface used to connect the TV to the computer and vice versa. Yes, you need a special cable to connect the computer to the TV. Either a straight (i.e. not a crossed one) serial cable with DB9 (9 pin) female to female connectors or by using a gender changer male-to-female on one end of a cable with female to male connectors.

Or you could use a USB adapter, look in this thread.

Good luck!
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:33 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Don't get too hung up on results in the charts, they are really only an indication and especially when using low end equipment you are more likely adjusting against errors in the readings than actual errors in the Pioneer G8. Thus, if you achieve a perfect result in the graphs you have in reality only achieved a worse picture quality than you started with.

Using a Display 2/LT (or indeed a i1 Pro) you should as much as possible not move the Pioneer's primary colors using the TV's Color Management controls. This is not only me saying so, but the consensus of a few professional calibrators with high end equipment that I have asked regarding this. Pioneer's primary colors are close to standard and should require only very small adjustment if any at all and you should always keep looking at real material during calibration so as not to get too focused on results in a chart. Also remember that the CIE chart in particular only tells you part of the story.

Anyway, proper procedure during calibration should, IMHO, be:
  1. Black level adjustment (Brightness)
  2. Reference White level adjustment (Contrast)
  3. Primary Colors gamut, check and adjust if necessary (I would just leave it as is or only make very small adjustments)
  4. Gray scale adjustment
  5. Gamma adjustment if necessary (should not require much if any if you leave Color Management alone, and also remembering that errors in either measurements and software calculations can be the reason for graphs not looking perfect)
  6. Secondary Colors, check and adjust if necessary (same as for primary colors, I would leave as is or only make very small adjustment)
  7. Check primary colors again and adjust if necessary
  8. Start over from 4
  9. Start over from 1 and if all is OK then you are finished
I Totally agree with this procedure but I saw that my procedure is better on my particular display (I follow your procedure to calibrate other displays like projectors....)

Regarding software, I find that results are very similar (The difference is ridiculous whatever the software...)

I don't know why you bought an I1PRO if you think like that...
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:50 AM   #79
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I Totally agree with this procedure but I saw that my procedure is better on my particular display (I follow your procedure to calibrate other displays like projectors....)
Yes, and the reason it's different with the Pioneers is because their controls are flawed as soon as you use the Color Management to make adjustments to the TV's inherent colors. Don't you find it peculiar that you have a very "well behaved" gray scale until you use the Color Management controls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
Regarding software, I find that results are very similar (The difference is ridiculous whatever the software...)
Yes, by software I mean the entire chain, measurement software, software in the TV, software in your player, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
I don't know why you buy an I1PRO if you think like that...
Primarily I bought the i1 Pro because I want to increase repeatability between measurements. I got fed up doing a calibration only to find that the day after I would have to change settings in the TV to get similar results.

Don't gt me wrong here, I'm not saying that calibration is useless or not even that it is not necessary, it definitely is and especially with a great display like the Pioneer Kuro. I just caution anyone to use results in graphs as their only benchmark for calibration results and especially since the Pioneer TV both have flaws in the way its controls are implemented and since the Pioneer TV does not include a full fledged Color Management System, but only part of one.

Are you a pro calibrator, GorGorBey (not trying to be a jerk here, I'm genuinely interested)? Have you been following what has been written on forums in particular in regards to the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation?
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:57 AM   #80
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Yes, and the reason it's different with the Pioneers is because their controls are flawed as soon as you use the Color Management to make adjustments to the TV's inherent colors. Don't you find it peculiar that you have a very "well behaved" gray scale until you use the Color Management controls?

Yes, by software I mean the entire chain, measurement software, software in the TV, software in your player, etc.

Primarily I bought the i1 Pro because I want to increase repeatability between measurements. I got fed up doing a calibration only to find that the day after I would have to change settings in the TV to get similar results.

Don't gt me wrong here, I'm not saying that calibration is useless or not even that it is not necessary, it definitely is and especially with a great display like the Pioneer Kuro. I just caution anyone to use results in graphs as their only benchmark for calibration results and especially since the Pioneer TV both have flaws in the way its controls are implemented and since the Pioneer TV does not include a full fledged Color Management System, but only part of one.

Are you a pro calibrator, GorGorBey (not trying to be a jerk here, I'm genuinely interested)? Have you been following what has been written on forums in particular in regards to the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation?
Can you give me some links regarding the flawed nature of the Pioneer Color Management implementation ?
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