Calibration Forums
 
 

Go Back   Calibration Forums > DIY Calibration - Display Devices > Flat Panels - Plasma > Pioneer

Notices
Unread 04-14-2008, 03:50 PM   #1
Turbe
Senior Member
Professional Supporter
 
Turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 194
Thanked 178 Times in 137 Posts
Lightbulb Pioneer 8G Kuro Elite / Step-up D Models using ISFccc Option - All Regions

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornavy View Post
This may be a stupid question, but one thing I noticed when making my adjustments is that control cal leaves out Pioneer's gamma curve selection of 1-3. Is there any way to implement it, or is is totally unnecessary?
I think Blutarsky mentioned that too, but the 9-Point is what is available via the ISFccc interface, I believe those other selections are not needed.
Turbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register to remove these ads. It's free!



Register to remove these ads. It's free!
Unread 04-15-2008, 11:04 AM   #2
gatornavy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Can someone give me a tip for setting gamma correctly. Some of the gamma points don't line up perfectly with each of my IRE's and changing some of the points throws others out of whack. I'm about to throw my 950 out the window. Grrrrr. Is this Control Cals fault, or am I correct in thinking it's my display?
gatornavy is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-15-2008, 02:21 PM   #3
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
Concerning Gamma from the post above:

Blutarsky's post on AVS:
Quote:
...- One other strange beheaviour is that if you tweak a point, you are actually changing the next one! You have to keep in mind this factor.
I can't say that I have experienced this. Here's a couple of screenshots and photos from a mini review I wrote for a Swedish home theater forum:







It seems to be effecting where it should be. I have tried this with all the points of the 9 point gamma adjustment and it seems to be correct all through the range.

Of course, when you start trying to influence the gamma tracking over the whole range it's a whole other beast

Also, I don't know if I have missed something, but you only have a 2 point grayscale adjustment, RGB Gains and Cutoffs. As far as I understand it, all you can do is try to get as flat a gamma tracking as you can while having a grayscale tracking where RGB, while being separated, is also flat so that you can adjust that with RGB Gains and Cutoffs.

Comments?
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 06:57 AM   #4
Blutarsky
Senior Member

1st Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 220
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Great posts Wolfy, as always!

Well since I've been getting decent and constant results with the Getgray calibration patterns DVD I could concentrate on calibration and the C3 Interface.

I'm getting there and as I've wrote on AVS I need a few runs to acheive a very good calibration.

About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...

But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.

For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.

Definitelly it's not a Controlcal matter, it is the interface tha is tricky, that is why I asked some Pioneer's representative to make some changes in the firmware, if possible.

But basically I've learned that, initially, we should perform multiple runs without touching the "G9" control until we have reached very pleasant results. Try to adjust the grayscale just using RGB highs and lows to get it flat say from IRE 30 to 80. Adjust "Colour management" to move the colorpoints in place; it will make the grayscale task tougher but it will bring you to better results.
Once you get there, you can start to flatten the grayscale on the left and right sides, with the G9 control, just changeing one click per time and performing again the grayscale measurement to see what happened.

The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!

Maybe shawn could ask @ Pioneer.....

About firmware changes: I'll defintelly go for a petition online, hopeing Pioneer's bosses will decide to go for a more future-proof strategy and customer care satisfaction with firmware updates.
__________________
Pioneer PDP-508XD - MySkyHD Pace - Sony PS3.
Blutarsky is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 07:25 AM   #5
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Great posts Wolfy, as always!
You're not too shabby yourself mate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
...About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...
Hmm, I can get pretty large impact on gamma tracking using the 9 point. Here's an example (dotted lines indicate the starting point after having set black level, white level and gamut):



Edit: These are the settings in G9:
  1. R0, G1, B0
  2. R-2, G-1, B-2
  3. R-2, G-1, B-2
  4. R-2, G-1, B-2
  5. R-2, G-1, B-2
  6. R-2, G-1, B-2
  7. R-2, G-1, B-2
  8. R0, G0, B0
  9. R0, G0, B0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.
If it works for you, then go for it. I certainly don't have all the answers, I just find it logical that the 9 point adjustments should adjust the gamma in lieu of the 3 set values you have in the User Menu.

I agree that the adjustments are not sensitive enough, they are too harsh and makes too much impact thus making it tricky and hard to control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.
That's very good practice. I'm also going to start recording everything to see if one can find out the proper way to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!
Yup, and that's my concern too. I find it logical that G9 should be used for gamma, but I don't know if my way is the proper way. I hope someone in the know will share their knowledge with us.

Meanwhile, good luck to you in your efforts to find a way that works well all of the time... and good luck to me and everyone else too
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 08:00 AM   #6
Blutarsky
Senior Member

1st Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 220
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Yes, I see it now.Not sure that you need more than to change the gamma adjustments though. I mean that something like this should be sufficient?
Quote:
Regarding you using the 9 point gamma to adjust grayscale tracking, that seems backwards to me since in the ISF interface you replace the 3 set gamma choices in the User Menu with a 9 point adjustment.
Yes, I've had the same suspect.. probabily the 3 presets in the TV are some 9 point "hardocoded" combinations.

Nevertheless that control is the only way to flatten spiky points on the grayscale, particularly on the extreme sides of the grayscale...

As this changes the gamma curve, I've asked Tom Huffman to tell what is it better to sacrifice.... grayscale or gamma? Or? Look for a compromise?.

Take a look at this for example:



__________________
Pioneer PDP-508XD - MySkyHD Pace - Sony PS3.
Blutarsky is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 08:37 AM   #7
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Personally I would say that a compromise is what you have to aim for. A S-shaped gamma curve is as objectionable as a spiky and "colored" grayscale for the PQ.

Here are gamma unzoomed from above and also the grayscale at this point in the calibration. Note that this is not a finished calibration, I haven't got there yet, but you can at least see some semblance of a grayscale that should be possible to adjust correctly with RGB Highs and Lows:


This is for darkened room viewing, i.e. only with a dim bias light behind the TV.



PS Having thought about it for a while longer, I would say that gamma is most important since a bad gamma tracking will mean that you lose the dynamic range in the image, possibly details and worst case end up with a washed out image that lacks details both in shadows and highlights. This is IMHO.
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 09:00 AM   #8
Blutarsky
Senior Member

1st Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 220
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?
__________________
Pioneer PDP-508XD - MySkyHD Pace - Sony PS3.
Blutarsky is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 11:49 AM   #9
gatornavy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I was able to flatten out my grayscale perfectly last night using the RGB highs and lows and then tweaking with the 9 point gamma adjustment. It took a lot of passes and trial and error, but I nailed it. Oh then I tried to tweak one point for absolute perfection, and screwed it all up. Grrr. Frustrating, but fun!

Blutarsky, your s-curved gamma is better than a lot I've seen and is pretty good, though with using control cal last night, I was able to get it even flatter before I screwed it up. Keep trying.

I've noticed my PURE user setting being reset after using control cal as well. Not sure exactly what caused it.

gatornavy is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 12:53 PM   #10
Turbe
Senior Member
Professional Supporter
 
Turbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 194
Thanked 178 Times in 137 Posts
Default

What Color Space Setting is everyone using? In the ISF Mode(s), you should be set to 2.

Make sure you have both of these (in ISF Calibration Mode of course):

Color Temp: 6
Color Space: 2

9 point gamma was design for the color correction side of it, not gamma tweaks though it can be used for gamma tweaks. Use a 10 Step ramp pattern with these Controls.

I'll post some tips (including recommended Flow later).


-Shawn
Turbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 01:19 PM   #11
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?
First of all I think you're the best judge of that. From my limited experience it's certainly not horrible, but I think you should be able to a bit flatter.
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 01:41 PM   #12
Blutarsky
Senior Member

1st Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 220
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

gator what sensor and patterns are you using?
__________________
Pioneer PDP-508XD - MySkyHD Pace - Sony PS3.
Blutarsky is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2008, 01:56 PM   #13
gatornavy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I'm using a spyder2 with HCFR with the AVS HD 709 test patterns through my Sony BDP-S300.
gatornavy is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-17-2008, 04:30 AM   #14
Blutarsky
Senior Member

1st Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Italy
Posts: 220
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornavy View Post
I'm using a spyder2 with HCFR with the AVS HD 709 test patterns through my Sony BDP-S300.
So REC709 in HCFR...
__________________
Pioneer PDP-508XD - MySkyHD Pace - Sony PS3.
Blutarsky is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-10-2008, 09:43 AM   #15
mdfire
Member
Registered Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 75
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Further initial impressions

Still really impressed with programme. USB Converter definitely not working so I will try to get the Keyspan. One benefit is though that I have one laptop connected to the display to run ControlCal and the other connected to the probe to run HCFR..great visually

I find that if I wait 5-10 seconds after hitting the power on button before I hit start calibration I dont get the ISF Level not supported message.

A minor point (and this is splitting hairs) is that I think it would be good if the Colour Management sliders had numbers shown as per the highs and lows.

Anyway, I have square eyes by this stage and it is saturday so thats enough for today. Ive attached my last HCFR readings which I am pleased with so far.
Attached Files
File Type: zip ISF day second calibration.zip (3.6 KB, 69 views)
__________________
Pioneer PDP508XD, Onkyo 875, B&W MT 30, PS3, Sky HD, Harmony 895 Remote, Hitachi 42PD6600
mdfire is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-10-2008, 11:51 AM   #16
GorGorBey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 189
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Good evening

First of all I would like to congratulate you for this nice tool. The comments below are just here to help (little) you to improve the tool...

I calibrated my FULL HD LX508 Pioneer yesterday night till 5.00AM this morning.
The calibration has been done during 4 hours...

- The Gamma table is very difficult to use (each time you have to reset gamma. It's a pain...). It’s impossible to have a global view of all parameters…At the end, after several errors and loss, I copied all parameters in a file to ensure a backup...I hope that this feature will be available very soon because it's perhaps the most important weaknesses...

- I faced one major issue (4 times the calibration mode has been disabled by itself. It's not linked to time out issues. It's strange...The only solution I found was to save and to end the calibration each 20 minutes to be sure that my settings are not lost...
Did you know this issue ?

- One option to copy parameter from ISF Night to ISF Day should be available...Globally these settings are similar (except Luminosity and Contrast of course). I'm talking here about gamma parameters because it's already available for other parameters...

- It could be a good thing if we can have our name at the end of the calibration. I don't know if there is some place available... It will add value to the tool...

The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...

I will post the ColorHCFR.chc later…If you want that I test something don’t hesitate to ask me. I have several others calibrations to do for DTV and other input entries…

Thanks...
__________________
Projecteur: Mitsubishi HC3000 Lecteur DVD: Denon 1920 Enceintes: BW Nautilus: HTM1,805 Signature,SCM1 Caisson: Revel B5A Egaliseur: Velodyne SMS Plasma: Pioneer LX508D Projecteur son YSP: Yamaha YSP4000
GorGorBey is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-10-2008, 12:19 PM   #17
mdfire
Member
Registered Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 75
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hi GorGorbey, good post. Your results look excellent. Could you post flow procedure, colour meter used etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
Good evening

The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...

I will post the ColorHCFR.chc later…If you want that I test something don’t hesitate to ask me. I have several others calibrations to do for DTV and other input entries…

Thanks...
__________________
Pioneer PDP508XD, Onkyo 875, B&W MT 30, PS3, Sky HD, Harmony 895 Remote, Hitachi 42PD6600
mdfire is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mdfire For This Useful Post:
Unread 05-11-2008, 04:07 AM   #18
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
...The results were very good:
- Delta E below 2 from 20IRE to 100IRE (except for 2 values with Delta E below 3 )
- Flat Gamma Curve between 2.1 and 2.2 (it's my preference...)
- Excellent CIE Diagram...
Interesting, did you move the primary colors with Color Management?

I think that the LX508D has even better primary colors than the HD Ready models so perhaps you didn't have to do that. In my experience when you move the primary colors with the CM is when it becomes a real pain to get an optimal gray scale and a flat gamma curve.
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-11-2008, 04:59 AM   #19
mdfire
Member
Registered Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 75
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Yes I had an almost perfect RGB graph and then when I started looking at the CM, I lost it completely

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Interesting, did you move the primary colors with Color Management?

I think that the LX508D has even better primary colors than the HD Ready models so perhaps you didn't have to do that. In my experience when you move the primary colors with the CM is when it becomes a real pain to get an optimal gray scale and a flat gamma curve.
__________________
Pioneer PDP508XD, Onkyo 875, B&W MT 30, PS3, Sky HD, Harmony 895 Remote, Hitachi 42PD6600
mdfire is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-11-2008, 05:48 AM   #20
Wolfy
Senior Member

Charter Supporter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sweden
Posts: 255
Thanks: 22
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Same here, as soon as I touch the CM it's an uphill battle. I was hoping the the 9 point controls would help, but they are not helpful enough (too much happens with each increment). At least I have not found a way to use it after I've used the CM.

I'm looking into using CalMAN to use a custom white point target where I use the primary colors and D65 without using the Pioneer CM.
__________________
Display: Pioneer PDP-428XD, ControlCAL 1.41
Wolfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
isf, isf c3, isfccc, pdp-428xd, pdp-428xg, pdp-508xd, pdp-lx508a, pdp-lx608a, pioneer, pioneer 8g, pioneer elite, pioneer workflow, plasma, pro-110fd, pro-150fd, pro-950hd

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Sponsored Links


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2003, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement System V2.3 By   Branden
©2008 - 2017 ControlCAL.com