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Unread 04-15-2008, 02:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
Concerning Gamma from the post above:

Blutarsky's post on AVS:
Quote:
...- One other strange beheaviour is that if you tweak a point, you are actually changing the next one! You have to keep in mind this factor.
I can't say that I have experienced this. Here's a couple of screenshots and photos from a mini review I wrote for a Swedish home theater forum:







It seems to be effecting where it should be. I have tried this with all the points of the 9 point gamma adjustment and it seems to be correct all through the range.

Of course, when you start trying to influence the gamma tracking over the whole range it's a whole other beast

Also, I don't know if I have missed something, but you only have a 2 point grayscale adjustment, RGB Gains and Cutoffs. As far as I understand it, all you can do is try to get as flat a gamma tracking as you can while having a grayscale tracking where RGB, while being separated, is also flat so that you can adjust that with RGB Gains and Cutoffs.

Comments?
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Unread 04-15-2008, 02:36 PM   #22
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Do you have a link to the Swedish site where you did the review?
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Unread 04-15-2008, 05:46 PM   #23
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Sure: ControlCAL thread on Component.se. It's in Swedish though and the images are a mix between direct image links and some uploaded to the site so that they will be reduced in size to match the width of the site layout. I think you will need to be a member to be able to see those, but then again those ones are screen captures from ControlCAL so I think you already know what they look like
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Unread 04-16-2008, 06:57 AM   #24
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Great posts Wolfy, as always!

Well since I've been getting decent and constant results with the Getgray calibration patterns DVD I could concentrate on calibration and the C3 Interface.

I'm getting there and as I've wrote on AVS I need a few runs to acheive a very good calibration.

About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...

But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.

For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.

Definitelly it's not a Controlcal matter, it is the interface tha is tricky, that is why I asked some Pioneer's representative to make some changes in the firmware, if possible.

But basically I've learned that, initially, we should perform multiple runs without touching the "G9" control until we have reached very pleasant results. Try to adjust the grayscale just using RGB highs and lows to get it flat say from IRE 30 to 80. Adjust "Colour management" to move the colorpoints in place; it will make the grayscale task tougher but it will bring you to better results.
Once you get there, you can start to flatten the grayscale on the left and right sides, with the G9 control, just changeing one click per time and performing again the grayscale measurement to see what happened.

The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!

Maybe shawn could ask @ Pioneer.....

About firmware changes: I'll defintelly go for a petition online, hopeing Pioneer's bosses will decide to go for a more future-proof strategy and customer care satisfaction with firmware updates.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 07:00 AM   #25
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One thing I've forgot to mention: I suspect the C3 interface being buggy (one more reason to update firmware.... Josh? ) :

Within the infamous 8 minutes timeout, it happened to me at least 2 times, that the display changed it's output values, acting like if it was being resetted. All this, before the 8 minutes timeout!

Wolfy did you experience the same problem?
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Unread 04-16-2008, 07:03 AM   #26
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Regarding you using the 9 point gamma to adjust grayscale tracking, that seems backwards to me since in the ISF interface you replace the 3 set gamma choices in the User Menu with a 9 point adjustment. The aim with it is still to get as flat a gamma tracking as you can. The grayscale is adjusted with RGB Highs and Lows. At least that's my understanding of how it should work.

The way I have been adjusting is to not touch Green for grayscale adjustment, only Red and Blue (adjusting this after gamma).

For 9 point gamma I start trying to flatten Green since that gives the most contribution to Luminance and then I follow up with Red and last Blue and finally trying to fine tune everything while also looking at how the grayscale looks. I've come a part of the way but still not cracked the riddle so as to feel confident about how everything interacts. If I do I will report my steps.

I hope that if there's anyone reading this who knows the proper way to do this, they will chime in
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Last edited by Turbe; 08-06-2008 at 09:06 PM.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 07:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Great posts Wolfy, as always!
You're not too shabby yourself mate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
...About the 9 point gamma tracking: I'm using it to flatten the grayscale and, yes, it changes slightly the gamma curve...Unsure if this is what it was intended for...
Hmm, I can get pretty large impact on gamma tracking using the 9 point. Here's an example (dotted lines indicate the starting point after having set black level, white level and gamut):



Edit: These are the settings in G9:
  1. R0, G1, B0
  2. R-2, G-1, B-2
  3. R-2, G-1, B-2
  4. R-2, G-1, B-2
  5. R-2, G-1, B-2
  6. R-2, G-1, B-2
  7. R-2, G-1, B-2
  8. R0, G0, B0
  9. R0, G0, B0
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Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
But now I can tweak correctly the grasycale, although it's very dangerous in terms of impact, as a single click can screw up everything.
If it works for you, then go for it. I certainly don't have all the answers, I just find it logical that the 9 point adjustments should adjust the gamma in lieu of the 3 set values you have in the User Menu.

I agree that the adjustments are not sensitive enough, they are too harsh and makes too much impact thus making it tricky and hard to control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
For this reason now I'm recording on paper each change I do so I can easily goback at the previous setting and start over with other changes.
That's very good practice. I'm also going to start recording everything to see if one can find out the proper way to do this.

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Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
The only concern is this is the correct way to use the G9 control!
Yup, and that's my concern too. I find it logical that G9 should be used for gamma, but I don't know if my way is the proper way. I hope someone in the know will share their knowledge with us.

Meanwhile, good luck to you in your efforts to find a way that works well all of the time... and good luck to me and everyone else too
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Unread 04-16-2008, 07:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
...Within the infamous 8 minutes timeout, it happened to me at least 2 times, that the display changed it's output values, acting like if it was being resetted. All this, before the 8 minutes timeout!

Wolfy did you experience the same problem?
I have only had it happen when I was changing my DVD from DVE to GetGray. As soon as the TV momentarily lost the signal from the DVD all settings were reset. If I use SAVE SETTINGS in ControlCAL there's no worries though, yet...
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Unread 04-16-2008, 08:00 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Yes, I see it now.Not sure that you need more than to change the gamma adjustments though. I mean that something like this should be sufficient?
Quote:
Regarding you using the 9 point gamma to adjust grayscale tracking, that seems backwards to me since in the ISF interface you replace the 3 set gamma choices in the User Menu with a 9 point adjustment.
Yes, I've had the same suspect.. probabily the 3 presets in the TV are some 9 point "hardocoded" combinations.

Nevertheless that control is the only way to flatten spiky points on the grayscale, particularly on the extreme sides of the grayscale...

As this changes the gamma curve, I've asked Tom Huffman to tell what is it better to sacrifice.... grayscale or gamma? Or? Look for a compromise?.

Take a look at this for example:



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Unread 04-16-2008, 08:37 AM   #30
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Personally I would say that a compromise is what you have to aim for. A S-shaped gamma curve is as objectionable as a spiky and "colored" grayscale for the PQ.

Here are gamma unzoomed from above and also the grayscale at this point in the calibration. Note that this is not a finished calibration, I haven't got there yet, but you can at least see some semblance of a grayscale that should be possible to adjust correctly with RGB Highs and Lows:


This is for darkened room viewing, i.e. only with a dim bias light behind the TV.



PS Having thought about it for a while longer, I would say that gamma is most important since a bad gamma tracking will mean that you lose the dynamic range in the image, possibly details and worst case end up with a washed out image that lacks details both in shadows and highlights. This is IMHO.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 09:00 AM   #31
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Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?
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Unread 04-16-2008, 11:49 AM   #32
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I was able to flatten out my grayscale perfectly last night using the RGB highs and lows and then tweaking with the 9 point gamma adjustment. It took a lot of passes and trial and error, but I nailed it. Oh then I tried to tweak one point for absolute perfection, and screwed it all up. Grrr. Frustrating, but fun!

Blutarsky, your s-curved gamma is better than a lot I've seen and is pretty good, though with using control cal last night, I was able to get it even flatter before I screwed it up. Keep trying.

I've noticed my PURE user setting being reset after using control cal as well. Not sure exactly what caused it.

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Unread 04-16-2008, 12:53 PM   #33
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What Color Space Setting is everyone using? In the ISF Mode(s), you should be set to 2.

Make sure you have both of these (in ISF Calibration Mode of course):

Color Temp: 6
Color Space: 2

9 point gamma was design for the color correction side of it, not gamma tweaks though it can be used for gamma tweaks. Use a 10 Step ramp pattern with these Controls.

I'll post some tips (including recommended Flow later).


-Shawn
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:04 PM   #34
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The Build I am working on now (Build 11) will become Build 12 or 13.

For some recent requests and needs, I will be quickly releasing Build 11 that only adds the remaining Regions: Australia and China/General Regions.


-Shawn
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:13 PM   #35
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Cheers Shawn,

I always use Color Space 2 and Color Temp 6.

Not sure what you mean by color correction side of things but I look forward to your upcoming flow post
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Do you think my S-curved gamma is acceptable?
First of all I think you're the best judge of that. From my limited experience it's certainly not horrible, but I think you should be able to a bit flatter.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:41 PM   #37
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gator what sensor and patterns are you using?
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:56 PM   #38
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I'm using a spyder2 with HCFR with the AVS HD 709 test patterns through my Sony BDP-S300.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 01:59 PM   #39
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Cheers Shawn,

I always use Color Space 2 and Color Temp 6.

Not sure what you mean by color correction side of things but I look forward to your upcoming flow post
Same here, can't wait to read your flow post.
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Unread 04-16-2008, 07:11 PM   #40
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Build 11 has been released.

You should have received my email with the link.

Though Build 11 only adds support for Models in all Regions, it is very important that everyone is using Build 11. Since I rewrote the function handling the Regions, I do need verification that this Build is working with the North American and European Models still.

Please even post if it works and post your Display's Region...

Thanks

-Shawn
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