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Unread 05-20-2008, 06:49 AM   #1
smkuro
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Question Pioneer Pro-110FD - NOT using ISFccc Option

Greetings all:

I have a relatively new Pro110FD, which I have calibrated with Display 2 and HCFR. I get great grayscale and RGB tracking (deltaE< 2), and the CIE plot is not too shabby either (without getting into changing the values using Pioneer's CMS).

My gamma curves look horrible, and I'm hoping to use the Calman Control program to fix this soon. Some questions for those who have tamed their gamma's:

1) What size windows do you use in HCFR? For an 8G plasma, I assume we should use windowed IRE patterns, and not full size (in an LCD, it does not matter).

2) What controls do use you to tame gamma?

Thanks for your help!
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Unread 05-20-2008, 07:26 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Greetings all:

I have a relatively new Pro110FD, which I have calibrated with Display 2 and HCFR. I get great grayscale and RGB tracking (deltaE< 2), and the CIE plot is not too shabby either (without getting into changing the values using Pioneer's CMS).

My gamma curves look horrible, and I'm hoping to use the Calman Control program to fix this soon. Some questions for those who have tamed their gamma's:

1) What size windows do you use in HCFR? For an 8G plasma, I assume we should use windowed IRE patterns, and not full size (in an LCD, it does not matter).

2) What controls do use you to tame gamma?

Thanks for your help!
Of course you should use windowed IRE patterns...

With the HCFR file, it will be easier for us to help you to use the gamma control of ControlCAL...
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Unread 05-20-2008, 08:23 AM   #3
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Here is my calibration file for HCFR for my Pro-110FD. As you can see, the gamma curve is off the charts, but gray scale and RGB levels look fine. I haven't yet played with the CMS to adjust the primary color points.

http://www.cs.umass.edu/~mahadeva/pr...-pure-mode.chc
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:04 AM   #4
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That looks weird and your reported luminance is through the roof, impossible to get with a Pio plasma TV! Edit: Look at the values in the Measures tab. You have 512 cd/m^2 for 100% white, that's way off target. SMPTE uses 35 ftL for 100% white for their studio monitors, which is around 120 cd/m^2. There must be something fundamentally wrong with those reported results and how you are taking the measurements or your sensor is broken.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:13 AM   #5
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Hmm..I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I placed the Display 2 right next to,
but not in contact with the screen (perhaps 1-2 mm away). Could that be the problem?
I would not think so, since it seeems to be reading the values properly across the gray scale.

The Pioneer 110FD does produce a very bright windowed image, hence the very high values for the 100% IRE reading. Note that this is not a full IRE reading, but a windowed IRE reading. In HCFR, I set the size of the window to be 25% of the full display, I think.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:20 AM   #6
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Was this in a darkened room? If so, then it should be OK, you only need to be wary of having the sensor in the exact same position all of the time which is why it is easier to have the sensor touch the screen. For what it's worth, if you use the cleaning cloth that came with the TV after a calibration session with the sensor attached to the glass it's OK, nothing will stick to the glass.

If you have been doing readings in a lit room, daylight or ambient light then you really need to have the sensor attached to the glass to keep ambient light out.

You are using HCFR as a pattern generator through a HTPC? I have no experience with that so in that case I can't help you I'm afraid, but you definitely shouldn't be getting those kind of luminance readings from a plasma panel.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:26 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Was this in a darkened room? If so, then it should be OK, you only need to be wary of having the sensor in the exact same position all of the time which is why it is easier to have the sensor touch the screen. For what it's worth, if you use the cleaning cloth that came with the TV after a calibration session with the sensor attached to the glass it's OK, nothing will stick to the glass.

If you have been doing readings in a lit room, daylight or ambient light then you really need to have the sensor attached to the glass to keep ambient light out.

You are using HCFR as a pattern generator through a HTPC? I have no experience with that so in that case I can't help you I'm afraid, but you definitely shouldn't be getting those kind of luminance readings from a plasma panel.
You have the same display than me. It should be better...Can you share with me your parameter... I think I know the root cause but I would like to see your parameters....
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:29 AM   #8
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I also have the AVS HD-DVD disc with the calibration patterns, so I'll rerun the readings this afternoon. Yes, these readings were taken during the day, but I have room darkerning curtains, so the ambient light was not too bright (certainly, the room was not completely dark, but it was not very bright either).

I also calibrated a Sony XBR previously, but I generated the patterns manually from the AVS DVD. It is much less painful to have HCFR automatically generate the patterns, and I think several people on this forum are using this approach (from the images posted).
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:35 AM   #9
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Did you see my message ?
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:37 AM   #10
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Another point I should mention is that this is a very new plasma -- perhaps a week old with about 40 hours use. Could that be the reason? Anyway, here are the parameters.

AV Sel: Pure
Contrast: 20
Brightness: 0
Color: +7
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema:
Film: Std
Text Optimization: Off
Intelligence Mode: Off

Picture Detail:
DRE: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhanced mode: 2
Gamma: 3

Color Detail:
Color Temperature: Manual
CTI: Off
Color Space: 2

R-high:+3
G-high: 0
B-high: -4

R-low: 0
G-low: 0
B-low: 0

I also realized that in the Other options, I had the Power savings Mode 2 enabled.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GorGorBey View Post
Did you see my message ?
You quoted me instead of smkuro.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Another point I should mention is that this is a very new plasma -- perhaps a week old with about 40 hours use. Could that be the reason? Anyway, here are the parameters...
Those looks fine and are somewhere were I expeted from looking at your luminance from 10%. A contrast setting of 20 is quite low and you are not getting all the dynamic out of the picture from your Kuro that you can.

There is something else going on, perhaps GorGorBey can help as he seems to have used HCFR in this way. I have never used a HTPC so I don't have a clue about that I'm afraid.

Looking at the luminance from 10% in your file and assuming a flat 2.2 gamma, no black level compensation, you should have around 97 cd/m^2 (not 500+) for 100% white.

PS Forgot to answer your question. No, this is not because you have a new plasma. Modern plasma TV:s are aged in factory and the phosphors have an almost linear aging so there's no huge difference like it was with older plasma TV:s. There is absolutely something wrong with the results and I bet it has nothing to do with your TV.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 09:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Another point I should mention is that this is a very new plasma -- perhaps a week old with about 40 hours use. Could that be the reason? Anyway, here are the parameters.

AV Sel: Pure
Contrast: 20
Brightness: 0
Color: +7
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15

Pure Cinema:
Film: Std
Text Optimization: Off
Intelligence Mode: Off

Picture Detail:
DRE: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhanced mode: 2
Gamma: 3

Color Detail:
Color Temperature: Manual
CTI: Off
Color Space: 2

R-high:+3
G-high: 0
B-high: -4

R-low: 0
G-low: 0
B-low: 0

I also realized that in the Other options, I had the Power savings Mode 2 enabled.
I'm sorry but your settings seem ok...The contrast could be more important and the curve said the contrary...
Very Strange...

In my User Calibration My contrast is set to 28. And I have 150cd/m3 at 100 IRE. I'm not talking here about ISF settings of course...

And the source ?
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Unread 05-20-2008, 10:03 AM   #14
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Another Thing...

Could you post the HCFR file using Cinema instead of user and Low Mode for temperature + gamma 2....
The gamma should be perfect....

It will help....
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Unread 05-20-2008, 10:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Hmm..I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I placed the Display 2 right next to,
but not in contact with the screen (perhaps 1-2 mm away). Could that be the problem?
I would not think so, since it seeems to be reading the values properly across the gray scale.

The Pioneer 110FD does produce a very bright windowed image, hence the very high values for the 100% IRE reading. Note that this is not a full IRE reading, but a windowed IRE reading. In HCFR, I set the size of the window to be 25% of the full display, I think.
It's also obvious that if there is space between Probe and Display you must have darkness....
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Unread 05-20-2008, 10:23 AM   #16
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Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to re-run the calibration today, and
put the sensor physically on the screen if I can mange that (the suction cups sometimes come loose and that's annoying). Also, I'll check the values with the AVS disc as well.

I am generating the patterns from a laptop running HCFR, connected to the display using a DVI-to-HDMI cable (connected to input 7). The laptop is running Windows XP in dual screen mode. The second screen (for the Pioneer) is set to 1920x1080 (automatically by Windows).

One more thing: I selected "Eye One Plasma Display" in HCFR, with the mode "Ambient light using diffusor" selected, as well as "Average many readings for dark values" also selected.

In the Parameters submenu in the Measures menu, should I select "Grayscale in NTSC IRE values" to be on? I can't remember if I did that or not.
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Unread 05-20-2008, 11:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to re-run the calibration today, and
put the sensor physically on the screen if I can mange that (the suction cups sometimes come loose and that's annoying). Also, I'll check the values with the AVS disc as well.

I am generating the patterns from a laptop running HCFR, connected to the display using a DVI-to-HDMI cable (connected to input 7). The laptop is running Windows XP in dual screen mode. The second screen (for the Pioneer) is set to 1920x1080 (automatically by Windows).

One more thing: I selected "Eye One Plasma Display" in HCFR, with the mode "Ambient light using diffusor" selected, as well as "Average many readings for dark values" also selected.

In the Parameters submenu in the Measures menu, should I select "Grayscale in NTSC IRE values" to be on? I can't remember if I did that or not.
Please Uncheck Ambient light using diffusor...This option is to measure ambient light... And NOT to take measure on a display....
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Unread 05-20-2008, 11:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
Thanks for all the suggestions. I am going to re-run the calibration today, and
put the sensor physically on the screen if I can mange that (the suction cups sometimes come loose and that's annoying). Also, I'll check the values with the AVS disc as well.
Yup, check it with the AVS disc and report back. It'll be very interesting to hear if that makes a difference.

Too bad about the suction cups coming off. You could try the old shoe box trick. If you have any sort of box that can hold the entire sensor inside, maybe line it with some foam rubber-like material. Then place the box over the Display 2 (cutting a narrow slit for the cable to run through) and press against the glass so as to make a seal and keep ambient light out. This way you can still do daylight reading while keeping the sensor off of the glass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smkuro View Post
...One more thing: I selected "Eye One Plasma Display" in HCFR, with the mode "Ambient light using diffusor" selected, as well as "Average many readings for dark values" also selected.

In the Parameters submenu in the Measures menu, should I select "Grayscale in NTSC IRE values" to be on? I can't remember if I did that or not.
You should uncheck both of these settings. Display 2/LT has no ambient light capabilities and I have shown in previous tests that a video black signal for a longer period can mess up the readings from the Display 2 sensor. IMHO, you don't gain any accuracy with "average many readings on dark values" set, it's rather the opposite.

I believe that NTSC setup (video black = 7.5 IRE) is only valid for analog sources. Maybe someone else can confirm this?
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Unread 05-20-2008, 11:53 AM   #19
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With the I1PRO and HCFR it's the contrary. You really gain accuracy by using this feature (average many readings on dark values)
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Unread 05-20-2008, 12:24 PM   #20
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This may sound like a dumb question, especially given my background in computer science, but how did you insert the serial port connector to the back of the TV? I see a RS-232 male port on the back of my TV. However, the USB-to-serial cable that I just got from Radio Shack has a male 9-pin end as well. Also, the Keyspan cable that Shawn recommends also has a male 9-pin end.

Do you need another gender changer to get this to work?
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