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Unread 12-30-2008, 11:04 PM   #21
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-Gray scale 30, 80 RGB correction
Instead of using 2 steps (data points), why not use 11 (10% increments)?

How did you arrive at setting your Color Control at 3?
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Unread 12-30-2008, 11:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
Instead of using 2 steps (data points), why not use 11 (10% increments)?
I do them both. First I use 30/80 to correct colors highs and lows and then make 10% increments measurments.

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Originally Posted by Turbe View Post
How did you arrive at setting your Color Control at 3?
Skip to the 100% white window pattern by selecting "10% Grayscale" -> "100% Gray window".
Skip to the 100% Red window pattern by selecting "100% Saturated Colors" -> "100% Red window".
Adjust the colour control on your display until the Y reading is 21% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier.

Also I saw that Delta E was best for all colors using Color +3.
Is it not correct?
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Unread 01-01-2009, 06:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
I do them both. First I use 30/80 to correct colors highs and lows and then make 10% increments measurments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
Skip to the 100% white window pattern by selecting "10% Grayscale" -> "100% Gray window".
Skip to the 100% Red window pattern by selecting "100% Saturated Colors" -> "100% Red window".
Adjust the colour control on your display until the Y reading is 21% of the 100% white window reading measured earlier.

Also I saw that Delta E was best for all colors using Color +3.
Is it not correct?
Both of these methods/workflows are correct with the type of controls and their limitations that Pioneer 428XD offers - IMHO.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 06:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
Here are my latest Settings. Colors corrected, Pure Cinema to 1. Gamma has an s-shape, how could I correct it?
I find it very interesting that you would get different color measurement results by changing PureCinema setting. Have you confirmed this change by switching back and forth and retaking measurements?

Results-wise you have very good results and if you are happy with the resulting picture quality I see no reason to sweat the relatively small errors from standard.

From your last results you could try and bump 10% RGB to +1 and carefully watch some dark scenes before and after to see if you notice improved shadow detail. Generally though it has been my experience that the Color Management is best left alone as much as possible since Color Space 2 with the 428XDs I have seen thus far have been very close to standard and within human perception (at least mine ) and instead focus on grayscale/gamma.

Personally I would go higher contrast for more perceived picture-depth, but like I wrote to you in PM, nobody can tell you what is right for you and if you feel a higher contrast setting makes the resulting picture uncomfortable to watch you are right to lower contrast. Do you have a bias light behind your TV? If not, I highly recommend you getting one, it makes a huge difference to battle eye strain. Unfortunately suitable 6500 K bias lights are hard to come by over here (Europe).

Good luck with your continued efforts.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 11:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
I find it very interesting that you would get different color measurement results by changing Pure Cinema setting. Have you confirmed this change by switching back and forth and retaking measurements?
I changed PC and Red High from -4 to -5, so I don't know if gamma changed because of PC. I didn't do a comparison yet.. Also, I don't know if I changed Red High, because I changed Pure Cinema. I can't achieve 100% for all 3 colors, usually it is 100%, 99%, 99%, so maybe I tried something else.

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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
From your last results you could try and bump 10% RGB to +1 and carefully watch some dark scenes before and after to see if you notice improved shadow detail.
Should I believe my sensors measurements at 10% and bump point 1 +1?
I am not sure if my sensor is accurate at 10%...

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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Personally I would go higher contrast for more perceived picture-depth, but like I wrote to you in PM, nobody can tell you what is right for you and if you feel a higher contrast setting makes the resulting picture uncomfortable to watch you are right to lower contrast. Do you have a bias light behind your TV? If not, I highly recommend you getting one, it makes a huge difference to battle eye strain. Unfortunately suitable 6500 K bias lights are hard to come by over here (Europe).
No bias light. I tried to put contrast to 30 but the picture became unnatural, I didn't have an eye strain, but whites where whiter than they should in dark scenes, they were allmost glowing. Myabe I'll try to raise my contrast less, eg +1 or +2 to see if it is better.

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Good luck with your continued efforts.
Thank you!
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Last edited by hariskar; 01-02-2009 at 01:50 AM.
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Unread 01-02-2009, 10:29 PM   #26
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I wonder which settings are better, #12 or #19? Which should I keep?
Thank you!
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Unread 01-30-2009, 07:01 AM   #27
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I haven't found better settings from the ones I posted in my topic in post #12...
Measures seem fine to my eyes, but I have black crash...
I did not see a reference movie, but in most movies the problem exists.. My gamma is linear and I use Display gamma in HCFR and Power function in Calman. Both targets are 2.2

What should I try to correct this?
In my room there is ambient light, it is not totally dark.
Thank you!
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Unread 01-30-2009, 05:02 PM   #28
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hariskar PM:ed me with some questions so I thought I would copy them in here should there be someone else having similar questions (I hope that's OK with you, hariskar - if not let me or turbe know and it'll be deleted) or if someone wants to take issue with my replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy
Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar
I haven't found better settings from the ones I posted in my topic in post #12...
Measures seem fine to my eyes, if I compare my gray scale chart it is similar to d-nice for night settings, but I have black crash...
I did not see a reference movie, but in most movies the problem exists.. My gamma is linear and I use Display gamma in HCFR and Power function in Calman. Both targets are 2.2

What should I try to correct this?
In my room there is ambient light, it is not totally dark.
Thank you!
How do you know that you have crushed blacks? The shadow detail in the 428XD isn't perfect, but there shouldn't be much of black crush unless your player is screwing around with the gamma. If you can see BTB (Blacker Than Black) and the +2% gray and you have a flat gamma response, then by definition you can't have black crush.

You are not supposed to see every detail very clearly in the shadow details, but if it bothers you a lot you could try and bump the settings +1 step for all RGB 10% in the 9-point controls in ControlCal (don't remember if you have already tried that). Other then that, all I can think of is a better player. I have used the AVSHD 709 disc with my PS3 and I can see down to digital level 18-19 (black = digital 16) so that's pretty good, IMHO.

Good luck!
--------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy
Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar
If it was the fault of the player, would I have a flat gamma?
Well, the i1 Pro and most meters are very poor when it comes to low light performance so you really can't trust the measurements near black. You have to use your eyes like you have done. Obviously it's almost impossible to discern gamma response only by eye so it's a catch 22 when you don't have an expensive meter (or one that performs well enough at such low luminance).

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Originally Posted by hariskar
I can see +1 and +2, I don't know about BTB, I'll check it. I see movies and there is no detail in dark hair, clothes etc. All I see is black. Should I enable Blacker than black in the player?
Yes, you may have to experiment with the player's settings too (I would not touch controls like brightness, contrast and the like though). Preferably you should see BTB as being passed (note: BTB should not be visible when you have brightness correctly set, only when you raise the black level with the brightness control to check that it is being passed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar
I put Contrast from 23 to 25 (about 33ftL) and bumped gamma 10% to +1 for all colors. I think it is better. Do you think my low contrast caused the problem?
Yes, it can definitely have an impact since the white level you set with the contrast control also sets the target luminance for the rest of the %stim levels. Lets assume a 2.2 gamma response. At a white level of 120 cd/m^2, the target for 10 %stim level is (0.1^2.2)*120 cd/m^2 = 0.76 cd/m^2. With a white level at 80 cd/m^2 the target now becomes (0.1^2.2)*80 cd/m^2 = 0.5 cd/m^2 or a 34% decrease in luminance at 10 %stim. You can imagine what that does for the steps near black in terms of visibility.

Like I wrote you before, no one can tell you what white level you should have, but there's definitely drawbacks to a low white level, especially with a small display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar
If there is ambient light in room what setting should I bump?
Thank you again!
Not sure what you are asking here? Correct ambient light should come from behind the TV and should be about 10% of the luminance of the white level. What setting you need to adjust depends on the nature of the ambient light. Everything from a higher brightness, higher contrast and a different gamma target.
PS Should also add that correct ambient light should be close to D65.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 08:32 PM   #29
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Hi Hariskar,
Been out of this for a while but I have the same display chain as you. So I will give it a try. For one, the DV-600 does not pass BTB or WTW without the modified firmware from PioneerFAQ. The reason you are probably getting some black crush is most probably due to that. I would suggest you check it out and enable BTB and WTW option before attempting to check your calibration. For one, at a contrast of 32 in my ISF settings, I get a 33ftL for a window of 100%IRE. Do you run the DV-600 direct to the Kuro or does it go through an AV amp? I found some issues with running it thru the Onkyo 875 with the Reon turned on. I will try to post my calibration results using the same display chain.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 08:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
I find it very interesting that you would get different color measurement results by changing PureCinema setting. Have you confirmed this change by switching back and forth and retaking measurements?

Results-wise you have very good results and if you are happy with the resulting picture quality I see no reason to sweat the relatively small errors from standard.

From your last results you could try and bump 10% RGB to +1 and carefully watch some dark scenes before and after to see if you notice improved shadow detail. Generally though it has been my experience that the Color Management is best left alone as much as possible since Color Space 2 with the 428XDs I have seen thus far have been very close to standard and within human perception (at least mine ) and instead focus on grayscale/gamma.

Personally I would go higher contrast for more perceived picture-depth, but like I wrote to you in PM, nobody can tell you what is right for you and if you feel a higher contrast setting makes the resulting picture uncomfortable to watch you are right to lower contrast. Do you have a bias light behind your TV? If not, I highly recommend you getting one, it makes a huge difference to battle eye strain. Unfortunately suitable 6500 K bias lights are hard to come by over here (Europe).

Good luck with your continued efforts.
Wolfy,

I found the same as well. Changing the PC definately changes the gamma.Sending 480i from the DV-600, PC at Advanced allowed the Kuro to extract 24fps and there was less judder but the brightness fluctuations were too much to bear. This is due to the flawed implementation of reverse telecine algo on the Advanced. Now the best I get is to turn on the Reon on my Onkyo and send a 480i signal from the DV-600. I also have to force the DV-600 to send a RGB signal instead of the YCbCr since the Reon alters the color luminance.
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Unread 01-30-2009, 11:08 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
PS Should also add that correct ambient light should be close to D65.
By ambient light I mean light from the windows that come from outside. Should I change the gamma formula?
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Unread 01-31-2009, 03:26 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
By ambient light I mean light from the windows that come from outside. Should I change the gamma formula?
Of course, I was a bit too tired when I replied. I meant a bias light.

You should experiment with what's available to you and find the settings that works for you and with ambient light, yes, you want a different gamma response and even an elevated black level (brightness). Setting the black level is all about what you actually see with your eyes so it will be different for ISF-Day vs ISF-Night - if you take the pre-defined gamma profiles (1 through 3) as an example, one would use 1 for nighttime and 3 for daytime (possibly with a higher setting for both brightness and contrast).
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Unread 01-31-2009, 03:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post
Wolfy,

I found the same as well. Changing the PC definately changes the gamma.Sending 480i from the DV-600, PC at Advanced allowed the Kuro to extract 24fps and there was less judder but the brightness fluctuations were too much to bear. This is due to the flawed implementation of reverse telecine algo on the Advanced. Now the best I get is to turn on the Reon on my Onkyo and send a 480i signal from the DV-600. I also have to force the DV-600 to send a RGB signal instead of the YCbCr since the Reon alters the color luminance.
What intrigued me was that he seemed to get different color point readings. Different PC settings unfortunately gives different light output, yes. I only use advanced with Blu-ray playback 1080p@24 and for DVD I use my Oppo 983H. Pioneer's PureCinema is so-so when it comes to cadence detection and locking onto that cadence.
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Unread 01-31-2009, 03:39 AM   #34
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A lot of options.... I was seeing my flat gamma and thought i am done with gray scale :-(
I have already brightness to +1, I thing if I put it to +2 colors are washed out.
I tried ITU/EBU, but I had to put brightness at +7 to get gamma fall on target (did I do anything wrong?).
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Unread 01-31-2009, 03:46 AM   #35
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Nope, I haven't found any use for the ITU/EBU formula. Power function is the best fit, IMHO.

If colors age getting washed out the black level is definitely too high. Try +2 for the 10 %stim step in the 9-point settings. The 9-point controls are a bit too coarse though os it's difficult to get any fine control over your gamma response.
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Unread 02-01-2009, 08:59 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Yes, you may have to experiment with the player's settings too (I would not touch controls like brightness, contrast and the like though).
To enable in Pioneer-600 BTB I have to put players brightness at +1 and contrast at -1, so, should I follow your advise and not touch players brightness and contrast and have my BTB disabled or the opposite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Preferably you should see BTB as being passed (note: BTB should not be visible when you have brightness correctly set, only when you raise the black level with the brightness control to check that it is being passed).
What is the point of enabling BTB (with the cost of changing Players Brightness and Contrast), if finally we adjust tv Brightness so, that it is not visible?

Thank you!
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Last edited by hariskar; 02-01-2009 at 09:11 AM.
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Unread 02-06-2009, 03:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
To enable in Pioneer-600 BTB I have to put players brightness at +1 and contrast at -1, so, should I follow your advise and not touch players brightness and contrast and have my BTB disabled or the opposite?

What is the point of enabling BTB (with the cost of changing Players Brightness and Contrast), if finally we adjust tv Brightness so, that it is not visible?

Thank you!
Preservation of WTW through the video chain (player+receiver+processor+display) is much more important than BTB. If you have from a trustworthy source, preferably the maker themselves - i.e. becasue of a design flaw, that the settings above is what is required then you should use that otherwise I wouldn't bother with it. BTB is not that crucial, IMHO.

BTB is part of the dynamic range defined in 8-bit video levels:

1-15 are the BTB video levels
16-235 are the video levels
236-254 are the WTW video levels

(PC levels are 0-255 without any BTB and WTW)

You calibrate BTB to be invisible and +2% (e.g. DVE) to just be visible to know that you have the correct black level set for the video chain. The reason why BTB is important is because the BTB video levels, 1-15, can become visible in actual content due to processing of the signal or the source material itself. So, ideally the entire range should be preserved through the video chain, but it's the end of the world if BTB is not preserved.
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Unread 02-06-2009, 03:17 AM   #38
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Thank you! WTW is OK with GetGray patterns and Players brightness +1, contrast -1.

I don't understand something: Is there a difference if a BTB is passed and tv can't show it because we adjust tvs brightness so, not to see BTB OR if we totally disable BTB?

Should I change players Brightness and Contrast to +1 and -1 to enable BTB and WTW or not?
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Unread 02-06-2009, 09:18 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
I don't understand something: Is there a difference if a BTB is passed and tv can't show it because we adjust tvs brightness so, not to see BTB OR if we totally disable BTB?
Yes, there is a difference. In real content BTB can, and I would add - will, become visible, which means that ideally BTB should be preserved in the video chain. Below I have attached a statistical treatment from Stacey Spears (had it on my HDD, don't remember the original link to a thread on avsforum) showing results from a number of movies and scenes and the difference between passing BTB and WTW vs clipping at levels 16 and 235.

As you can see there is some loss of information if you don't pass BTB which effectively means less than 8-bit reproduction, but it's not like it's a huge loss of bit depth. What this mean practically depends on the equipment in question and the source material. As I said though, I wouldn't lose sleep over this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hariskar View Post
Should I change players Brightness and Contrast to +1 and -1 to enable BTB and WTW or not?
I really can't say. The best you can do is try it and watch some content and then I don't mean watch for a few minutes, I mean live with it for a while. Then try resetting to 0 and again live with it for a while. Whichever setting looks best to you, use that.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg btb1.jpg (21.4 KB, 19 views)
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Unread 02-08-2009, 04:10 AM   #40
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With enabled BTB and WTW and raised Contrast to 28 (35ftL instead of 30), picture became much better.

Why do the most calibrators put contrast at 30ftL for idf-Night??
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