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Unread 07-17-2008, 05:15 AM   #21
Chris Nicholl
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Do you mean that the secondaries are off before you do the greyscale adjustment and close to standard after greyscale adjustment? If so, then that is as it should be since the greyscale if off from D65 before adjusting it and thus secondaries will be off.
That is exactly what I meant although I discovered it by doing things the other way round. Greyscale was good - adjusted secondaries - greyscale wasn't good.

In my experience the colour management in these and the 8g screens does what I'd expect - move the green slider control one way the green point on the gamut moves towards blue, move it the other way the point moves towards red etc.
Obviously a saturation as well as a hue/tint control is needed to fully manage the gamut but as you point out colour space 2 isn't particulary saturated in comparison to REC 709 primaries although the secondaries are a bit off.
If the you can adjust the primary and secondary points to be accurate and have good greyscale controls, how come they interact with each other in such an odd way?


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Last edited by Turbe; 08-07-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Unread 07-20-2008, 04:04 AM   #22
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I honestly don't why these quirks exists, other than perhaps Pioneer included these controls just so that it would look good on paper(?).

Lets just say that the Pioneer implementation of Colour Management is not an ideal one.

I had high hopes for G9, now I will hope that will G10 we will have a proper CMS, i.e. Saturation, Hue and Lightness for each individual colour.
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Unread 07-20-2008, 09:47 AM   #23
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The adjustment of secondaries causing greyscale errors is a known and common phenomenon of Pioneers CMS (it happens with Fujitsu as well...put up a grey ramp, turn off colour and make some adjustments to the CMS and see what happens). It is essentially, crappy and as Wolfy says, best avoided. I always try to do as little adjustment of the Pioneer CMS as is physically possible.

Also as Wolfy says its not just Saturation control that is required to go along with the badly implimented tint control they already have. You need a LIGHTNESS control as well. Just getting x,y correct isn't enough....you also need to fix z.......

Gordon

Last edited by Turbe; 08-07-2008 at 01:55 PM.
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Unread 07-20-2008, 06:00 PM   #24
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Greetings

A proper CMS system has 18 controls ... 6 for tint ... 6 for saturation ... 6 for brightness. Pioneer CMS gives you 6 of 18 ... which can lead to trouble.

Generally left alone by most calibrators because it takes too too long to figure out which adjustments are actually beneficial versus doing harm.

One might be able to improve things by a few clicks here and there, but not worth the effort on a professional level unless the calibrator has a lot of time to kill.

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Unread 07-21-2008, 08:00 AM   #25
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Hello,

From my recent conversations with Steve at the AVForums, it is clear that most of the issues he is having is because of my lack of updated documentation in the 9G Thread (though I did ask that everyone read through the first few posts in the 8G Threads in the email with the Activation Key).

I thought it would be beneficial to to post some important information and tips.

I would Enable Auto Send (disabled by default) and Disable (uncheck) Error Dialogs (found under Settings in the Menu). When using Auto Send, there should be no reason to use the SEND ALL Button. If an Pioneer Error Code is received, you will still see this in the Terminal Window.


It may be a good idea to Print the Tables.

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/show...36&postcount=3

Two other important bits of information are:
1) concerning the Gamma Controls. Each time you change a Gamma Point, you want to Press one of the two Small REFRESH Buttons near the Gamma Controls (Sliders). The Large REFRESH Button in the Main Window will Refresh all Controls including Gamma, the two Smaller REFRESH Buttons only Refresh Gamma.

2) when loading the other Profile (i.e. P2 from P1) and you have already entered Calibration Mode, you do not have to Press the START CALIBRATION Button again. ControlCAL does remember the Input you selected (no need to re-send that) and which Memory you are working on (ISF Day/ISF Night).
Most start with the P2 Profile, make those adjustments and spend the rest only working with P1 (you can refer to P1/P2 as Part #1, Part #2, Page #1, Page #2 or use any term you see fit).

Please see these two Posts (they apply to the 9G's):

Procedure Flow:
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/show...35&postcount=2

ControlCAL.ini settings (speed up REFRESH, auto load one of the Pioneer Profiles on Startup, etc.):
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/show...37&postcount=4
I wouldn't change the AutoSend_Timing Setting, but the other two you would most likely find useful (many use a Value of 200 for Forced_Wait_For for the Pioneer Profiles).

I'll get the 9G tables and documentation updated in this 9G Thread soon. <--- Translation Tables Completed

-Shawn

Last edited by Turbe; 08-07-2008 at 01:35 PM.
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Unread 07-21-2008, 09:45 AM   #26
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I have updated Posts #2 - #4 on Page 1 of this Thread (including the Input/Tuner Table for the 9G's), please do take the time Read these Posts and feel free to ask if you have any questions.


-Turbe

Last edited by Turbe; 12-28-2010 at 02:10 PM.
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Unread 07-22-2008, 10:16 AM   #27
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Hi
Thanks for the profiles!

I'm just trying to find a RS232 cable, on the other hand we have a few usb>serial adapters at work, I could give them a try meanwhile.

I'm curious about the ISF Auto mode, does it work by sensing the amount of light around the TV and then deciding if it's "day" or "night" ?
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Unread 07-23-2008, 12:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tlv View Post
Generally left alone by most calibrators because it takes too too long to figure out which adjustments are actually beneficial versus doing harm.
"Generally"

I'm curios if someone di actually got some real benefits from touching those controls.... or as Michael states it's only a matter of unpereceivable "clicks".

Are you professionals using the ISF inputs on Piooners sets or not? Yes, users cannot modify anithing so maybe you sacrifice those G9 little improvements to give users the opportunity to tweak?
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Unread 07-24-2008, 08:57 AM   #29
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Greetings

Let's say you want to do it right and push the performance ... making the most out of what Pioneer gives you. You make a few changes in the CMS on one color ... then you have to go back to look at the grayscale and retweak it. Then a few more clicks ... then back to grayscale ... then a few more clicks ... then back to grayscale ... but!!!!!

Now you find out that you can't fix the grayscale at all this time no matter what you do. So it's reset time back to the previous position and set the one cms parameter back to the previous step. Now go onto the next color ...

There could be 30 to 60 grayscale iterations here trying to tweak out that last few % of performance. And your eyes might not even see the differences on live images.

A 3 hour calibration session has ballooned to 10+ hours ... and suddenly the $350 you are paying your calibrator is not such a great deal for him.

Mind you ... you don't need access to the C3 to do this though. Perfectly achievable in the user menu. All the stuff is there to play with.

Do I as a pro calibrator use the C3 ... yes and no. On Previous generations before G8 ... yes ...

On the G8 ... so far no ... because of the interface fiasco. Although that looks to be solved now. I was doing it all in the user menu for the clients. The results are the same ... and in some ways ... offers the client more flexibility as a result. I am returning to a number of my G8 clients to do it via the C3 interface now because they want it. Those special ISF letters on the screen.

Will they see a difference in performance after it gets done in the C3 ... not at all.

Now we are at the G9 ... and there is more uncertainty again.

regards
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Unread 07-26-2008, 05:53 PM   #30
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Great work Turbe! I’ll test them on my 9g soon.
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Last edited by Turbe; 12-28-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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Unread 07-29-2008, 02:24 AM   #31
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Hi all,

I'd like the profiles to test them on my LX5090H.

Cheers
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Unread 07-29-2008, 02:44 AM   #32
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Hi

Could I have the 9G profiles for ControlCAL?

Huge thanks!

-Johannes

Ps, Greets from Finland!
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Unread 08-07-2008, 04:38 PM   #33
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Most of the information and tips in the 8G ISFccc Thread will apply to the 9G's. Please use the following link:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63


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Unread 08-07-2008, 06:35 PM   #34
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Default Am I missing somethig?????

Greetings everyone,

Here are some charts for my ISF-Day settings. The charts look pretty good. However, I dislike the color contamination i can see in a grayscale ramp. Am I missing something here? Did I do something wrong??? My flow chart is as follows:
  • Set peak luminance (Contrast)
  • Set black level (Brightness)
  • Correct grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Correct color points (CMS controls)
  • Fix gamma and grayscale (9 point gamma controls)
  • Tweak grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Check color points and adjust accordingly (CMS controls)
  • Verify everything again
  • Set color saturation (Color)


Luminance




RGB Luminance




Gamma




RGB Gamma




RGB Levels




Grayscale
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Unread 08-08-2008, 09:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Greetings everyone
Hi D-Nice and welcome to these forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
My flow chart is as follows:
  • Set peak luminance (Contrast)
  • Set black level (Brightness)
  • Correct grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Correct color points (CMS controls)
  • Fix gamma and grayscale (9 point gamma controls)
  • Tweak grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Check color points and adjust accordingly (CMS controls)
  • Verify everything again
  • Set color saturation (Color)
Points 3 & 4 should be interchanged. Since grayscale is the proper mix of primaries the primaries should be as close as possible before adjusting grayscale (just like you set black level and white level before looking at anything else) and the secondaries should fall in place after adjusting grayscale.

I have only experience with 8G Pioneers and EU models at that. I have found that if I use Pioneer's Color Management to get the primaries as close as possible I have a hard time getting a good grayscale/gamma tracking after that.

Fortunately using the Color Space 2 setting, the primaries are close enough to the standard CIE x, y and its then fairly easy to get an excellent and neutral grayscale tracking across the board. So, I leave the Color Management controls alone. Thus my workflow for EU 8G is as follows:
  1. Adjust Black Level
  2. Adjust White Level
  3. Adjust Grayscale with RGB High/Low
  4. Fine-tune Gamma with 9-point controls (usually only to give it a boost at 10%, but depends on source fidelity)
  5. Adjust Color Decoder (Color, Tint/Hue controls)
  6. Check Colors and if needed use CM very conservatively
  7. Start from 3 again, if OK proceed
  8. Start from 1 again, if OK then you are finished
With your connections I hope that you can get the word to Pioneer so that with 10G we'll have a proper CMS implementation (i.e. brightness, saturation and tint/hue adjustments for each primary and secondary color) from Pioneer.
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Unread 08-08-2008, 09:44 AM   #36
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Thanks Wolfy,

I actually figured out the correct work flow last night. Its pretty much what you recommended:
  • Set peak luminance (Contrast)
  • Set black level (Brightness)
  • Correct grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Fix gamma (9 point gamma controls.....green first followed by red then blue)
  • Correct color points (CMS controls)
  • Tweak grayscale (RGB High/Low)
  • Verify grayscale, gamma, and color points again
  • Set color saturation (Color)

Here are the final results:

Luminance




RGB Luminance




Gamma




RGB Gamma




RGB Levels




Grayscale
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Unread 08-08-2008, 03:44 PM   #37
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Great to see D-Nice and Mike TLV sharing theyr experiences here!
Some questions to D-Nice:
- did you use your good'ol PR-655 or ??
- what reference did you aim for? REC709?
- To what extent did you "touch"color control?
- can you publish the CIE chart results?
- how many times did you loop in the calibration cycle?

thanks
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Unread 08-08-2008, 04:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Great to see D-Nice and Mike TLV sharing theyr experiences here!
Some questions to D-Nice:
- did you use your good'ol PR-655 or ??
Nope. i1pro for these cals.

Quote:
- what reference did you aim for? REC709?
Rec709

Quote:
- To what extent did you "touch"color control?
My color is set to 1

Quote:
- can you publish the CIE chart results?
Sure:




Quote:
- how many times did you loop in the calibration cycle?

thanks
Don't remember. This was a 4 hour session to calibrate ISF Day and Night modes.
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Unread 08-12-2008, 02:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
My color is set to 1
Do you mean colorspace=1? If so can you comment on such a choice?

Besides, from that, how much did you tweak the colorpoints to avoid grayscale nonlinearity?
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Unread 08-12-2008, 02:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutarsky View Post
Do you mean colorspace=1?
No, the actual color setting. I always use colorspace 2 on the Elites.
Quote:
Besides, from that, how much did you tweak the colorpoints to avoid grayscale nonlinearity?
Great question I sacrificed a perfect green color point to keep the lower end of the grayscale linear. On ISF Day mode, I only had to tweak the Blue and Magenta CMS controls. Using ISF Night with a lower contrast setting, I used the Yellow, Cyan, Blue, and Magenta CMS controls. None were moved beyond 2 clicks.
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